Curse

Rizvan · Jan 21, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

MOD EDIT: Please do not engage in discussion here. This thread is for direct feedback to ArenaNet only.

HA itself is broken. There will always be people trying to farm fame, people trying to hold( plz dont tell me that holding requires skill with holding builds, those guys have so much defense that it takes over 10 minutes of pressure to take them down and altar maps last only 5 minutes out of which people actually fight for 2) and do things that take the enjoyment out of the game. HA should revamped and minor victory condition changes wont do anything about this. What needs to be done is constant check over the current metagame to make sure that just a few builds would dominate it.

I dont know how to do that. The only thing I can think of is constant skill changes, but that would drive everyone nuts. Changing victory conditions would just change the gimmick builds. My most promising plan is to have a mix of changes.

Keep 6v6, keep burial mounds, keep broken tower as kill count, courtyard and halls should be left as altar maps and make skipping practically impossible. My guildie thought of a simple system: basically, the team must fight every map and there will be wait times for it. Just cap wait times at reasonable levels.

My system most likely is flawed, but here is the main deal: AS LITTLE SKIPS AS POSSIBLE.

People would be forced to run builds that can kill, hold, run relics and fight 1vs1. And if one can skip through half of HA's maps then they can just run builds working only on few of those maps and hope that they wont run into maps that are unfavorable of them.

HA is about a mix of victory conditions and being ready for anything. You know you will practically never see a lot of builds ingvgs but in HA you have to be ready for everything. And if there are only a few builds in HA then people will just run a few builds to counter them. It is a vicious cycle.

bebop-time · Jan 21, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

- Re-introducing broken tower: awesome. Closing off the griefer area, even more awesome. =

-Scarred Earth: happy to see it go =

-Broken tower: The most fun i have had on this map in ages. =
Positioning actually mattered. Running around, ganking, retreating, getting into crazy battles, it was really fun. I'm not sure why most teams don't cap the alter, it gives morale every minute, what more can you ask for!

-Courtyard: This was an even more risky and fun filled map! The priest was sort of like a fail safe and ninja capping the alter is pretty fun too.

Halls: Murder ball: Ok, i loved this objective, I really do.=
It did feel that the holding team has a slight advantage at the start but seems fair since they are holding. I don't really understand all this talk about foes dominating. Most of the teams we faced played smart, trying to either block/interrupt/kd eles or kill monks and then kill eles with much success. The one minute mark res made this quite possible.

Alters: splits!! good.

The kill fest objective: The *only* complaint i have is the narrow corridors, it really does favour heavy aoe teams. I think alters should have a bigger focus to stop teams from retreating to their res shrines.

A final word:
-A lot of unused skills, like pretty much the whole water magic line (much love to water trident and shatterstone), crip shot rangers, hard res (joy), relying less on wards (though sand storm and foes spamming is pretty effective if only because of choke points) and other skill lines i haven't really gotten into.
-On the other hand, it seems harder to play with mesmers and necros, but i think thats because the meta is young.
-On 6v6 vs 8v8. Spikes with more people will dominate 8 v 8 yet again. I really do not like this.

My guild and I really enjoy this fluid version of tombs. Lets hope there are more test weekend to come.

Julen · Jan 21, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Why all the hatred towards Scarred Earth?

Granted, it could be frustrating skipping there for 1 fame, rolling the first team, but getting owned by the second one.

But honestly, nothing was wrong with this map. It was perfect to filter out the bad teams. There was no gimmickly objective there, just kill the other teams. Most of you people were complaining about defensive builds AND scarred earth in the same post. Doesnt make sense to me, couldnt you just have killed the defensive team then?

So please anet, think twice before removing it permanently!

Sentao Nugra · Jan 21, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

I really don't care if it is 8v8 or 6v6. Advantage 6v6 I guess because of the quicker group timings.

A group of r3-6 went on a rampage last night winning 7 in a row (a PuG mind you.) 4 of us came back today and won halls. The reason why we lost:

Kill count in HoH extremely EXTREMELY dis-favours the holding team. The matches I've watched and played in this style have almost always ended up in the holding team losing out. Admittedly I am a little biased, as getting collapsed on by Brehon and [Cow] is almost impossible to monk through. But they really need to rework some of the random HoH settings for it to work well and be even.

Bankai · Jan 21, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quick bullet points:
-Last 10 seconds is inaccurate on altar maps in my opinion. Change it to 15.
-Please put a huge message everytime you enter an altar map that says:"Stop whining about this map, change your build if it's bad for your current one".
-Great job on taking scarred earth out
-Make broken tower a little less frequent. I want to play the damn relic maps.

Symeon · Jan 21, 2007, 09:05 AM // 09:05

I'd just like to remind everyone of the requested posting format:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

... brief, bullet-point style of commentary on the changes to Heroes' Ascent. You can be assured that we will be reading longer threads and posts, as well. But for now, a listing of the various major changes (you can nab that from the Update Notes, if you wish) with your suscinct impressions, would be very useful!

Any back-and-forth discussion should be taken to other threads. This thread is for direct feedback to ArenaNet on the changes to Heroes' Ascent only.

If you've already made a post, and have more feedback you want to give, please edit that post to include it instead of making a new post.

TheBaron82 · Jan 21, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

the scarred earth removal was good and the return of burial mounds. I prefer keeping one altar map as the classic altar cap. Changing kill map from 10 to 7 is also a good idea.

caffine addict · Jan 21, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

-I love burial mounds getting back into rotation if not for just a map that i havent played on in a while. Scarred Earth was always the map i hated but that was because it was all about luck and if you got teamed up against a good team or stuck with a long match just to get beaten by the winner of the other side.

-Alter maps (non HOH) are fun, but alittle odd to get used to and i have high hopes for. Maybe switch between holding (like they used to) and point system just to keep things random.

-HOH is just pure chaos, with muderball giving blue a free relic cap because of postion and the pure crazyness of runing in a short area. Killing point system is just asking for blue to get ganked every time.

The skill balance is ok on some skills and horrible on others. Shield of Absorb, SF, and other skills were balanced without totally killing it. However some skills got buffs that didnt need it. The Rits (prof) stands out the most with so many buffs when they're were already alot of rits playing out there so i dont understand why they needed a buff. With Eruption you helped ss/warders (powerful enough) by giving them the ability to blind warriors while giving them aoe(though the enrgy is high its still effective.

However i was suprised that alot of the changes you made, I had actually read as suggestions guru forums. This alone gives me hope that you will take what you learned this weekend and correct some the problems faceing HA.

My last thought would be the problem with people wanting 8v8 back. I happend to like 8v8 alot and when it went to 6v6 I quit HA and went to gvg, but after the guild disbanned i went and joined a friends pve guild and started to play HA again a few weeks ago. It took awhile to like it but its ok but was a little better in 8v8. The bigest problem with HA atm is the amount of new ppl coming into HA, now HA attendance was getting smaller while 8v8 was going on and switching it back just might cause more problems. My vote is what gets more ppl in HA. I could care less if its 8v8 or 6v6, because either way most ppl will be playing fotm rather than balanced/creative builds no matter how many ppl/skills are on a team.

mho
Caffine

Dantes Soulmaiden · Jan 21, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Alter Maps: Kill Count is alot more fun that old relic maps where stale defensive builds won all. Though i find the now prevalent ultra offensive builds to be to my liking.

HoH: The Random Win conditions reduces the amount of fully defensive builds (holding builds) and helps introduce more balanced teams.

New maps: little disapointed here, New maps would have really invigorated HA to an extend where people would have wanted to play purely because it is something new.

Party Size: would prefer 8v8 due to the greater variety and more skill it introduced, currently 6v6 is just a mad rush to overwhelm the other teams monks before they overwhelm yours which although entertaining does lessen the skill level. A reduction in skill level in HA was generally the reason for the mass exodus to GvG from HA as it promoted teamwork etc. So 8v8 is essential to me in the continued sustainability of HA.

Recommendations:
1) increase party size to 8v8 again.
2) Give the maps a new look with fewer choke points to enable a free flowing battle with reduced reliance on AoE skills to overwhelm the opposing party.
3) Reintroduce Scarred earth but with open doors so if a team choses it could be a 4 way battle, this would allow for tactical movements (winning through teamwork) reducing the amount of "oh no they have the complete opposite to our build" comments as you can simply engage in a 4 way fight, which would be helaciously fun.

lyra_song · Jan 21, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Im commenting on the HoH changes only.

Overall flaws:
-These game modes do not work very well with 3 teams and the layout of the map.
-The Ghostly Hero has lost his overall importance.

Kill Count:
-Kill stealing.
-Biased towards certain builds over others (AOE).
-Promotes ganking.

Murderball:
-Bodyblocking kills this game mode in the narrow confines of the map.
-The relic lasts only 60 seconds and is not long enough.
-The defending team has overwhelming advantage in this game mode.

Capture Points:
-Map design is not condusive to gameplay style.
-Great possibilities for new tactics, but party size and map design hinders it.

If Anet wants to move forward and implement these are permanent changes, there must be radical changes to the map to make these gameplay modes much much more viable. As it stands, cramming new gameplay modes in this map, for which it was not designed for is a huge mistake.

I know Anet wants to make things more dynamic and reward builds which are flexible and adaptable to multiple situations (thus punishing fotm style buids) but they have to make the map less confined for these new game modes.

In a Nutshell:
- Good Ideas. Bad Implementation. Ugly use of HoH map.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jan 21, 2007, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Guildwars vs Luckwars

Whether one is sided with the faith and believe this is fate or one is sided with science and believed it happened by chance, doesn't matter.

Although there aren't many evidence of "luckwars" being the future, I would still like to point this out.

The main concern is mainly with ideas such as "randomly select game mode", while forcing limited option (limited number of skills) a team can play. Are we doomed to face defeat if the opponent so happen to get relic mode HoH when they were perfectly build for it and we were only decent for it? How much of guildwars in the future going to be luck based?

Personally, I hate everything related to luck. The X factor that can never be controlled by a few people's effort. Just a simple slip in the luck, even the best had to bend over at times. However, I don't find complete lack of luck an interesting competetion either, as you might as well announce the winner before the match start. So, what's the mid zone?

Anyway, I would really prefer if HoH mode are switched in a timely fashion instead of "random". Like every hour or every few battles in HoH would change the the mode once. This allow observer to focus on watching modes they like to watch (and maybe control when as well), while giving teams that will participate to plan their games out (and thus adding quick-thinking contest). It would also provide different hour of public who prefer a certain mode, as some who usually hate playing capture game can choose not to play capture game hour and join later when the mode change. This perhaps will also help identify which mode are generally more popular.

Sir Existo · Jan 21, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I dont like the new altar maps because gank, steal kills and run away. Luck is the only skill you need there.
Burial mounds are good that they are back.
Pls change the HA Altar maps like before.

At the end 8vs. 8 would be nice

.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 21, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Kill count= encourages cookie cutter or spike builds. Also, it pretty much completely removes the altar mechanic from HA. This arena doesn't really resemble Heroe's Ascent much anymore.

Horace The Great · Jan 21, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I hear alot of people saying they want everything back to oldschool, which i want aswell.
Some people say the Vault waiting is not good, i agree.
So why not make new extra maps?
Why not make some new maps in Factions and Nightfall style?
Keep Burial and Scarred Earth.

Damus · Jan 21, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Scarred Earth removal = gg!
Broken Tower time limit of 10 min should be reduced to 5min.
Return of Burial Mounds = gg!

Keep it 6v6(v6). People who cry for 8v8 are noobs who just want iway/vimway back, since it's the only way they can win. Trying to form 8 member groups in HA and getting them coordinated, ready, skills bought/capped, moms placated, dishes done, bladders drained, stomachs fed, phones answered, lags fixed only to have someone ragequit because another person accidentally started the timer early was the absolute worst part of GW, with perhaps the exception of the non-existent trade system and all those wammos with mending.

leguma · Jan 21, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

-Burial Mounds: Nice to have it back
-Broken Tower: Keep the kill count but make it a 1on1 with a 5 minute timer.
-Scarred Earth: Bring it back and make it a Kill count with 5 minutes for the initial fight, and another 5 minutes for the fight between the two winners (also implies removing the lever).
-Courtyard: Make this an altar cap map, it's big, has lot of alternate ways to reach every location and there is no reason why altar cap should only be present in the HoH.

-HoH Murderball: Either totally redesign the map or spawn 3 (THREE) relics every time. This would spread out the action and allow for more diverse games instead of the current blue auto-win.
-HoH Altar Cap: works fine as it is, although the map could be tweaked a little.
-HoH Kill Count: have the two contestants fight it out for 5 minutes and then have the winner take on the holders for another 5 minutes.

Gellor · Jan 21, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Scarred Earth removal: that map was a lot of effort for little gain. so, pretty good i guess to remore it.

Burial Mounds: works for me.

Altar Maps: These dont seem well focused anymore, and ganking is unpleasant. But the "last hero standing" mechanic was no good, it lead to people waiting the game away. There ought to be at least one map where defensive teams are rewarded.

Recommendation: Keep broken tower as Kill Count. Change courtyard back to altar control, but make it based on time spent controling the altar, not who has it last, first to three minutes or something like that.

HoH: having a changing mission was an inspired idea =), but take kill count out of the rotation and put in holding, like i have it for courtyard. I like the capping and the murderball.

Death_From_Above · Jan 21, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Ok well iv been playing in HA now examining the changes in order to give good feedback and from it all my conclusion is this. 6V6 is still to limiting you dont have enough to work with.

Alter maps which relie on kill counts. Not effective to be honest as things just become a gank fest. In addition to this i believe this was done in order to get rid of holding builds. But it dosent nessercaryily work. For example the fear me spam and the pargon spike still do pretty well. One case i can give you is when i went to courtyard. Both teams were pargon spike and my team was only balanced. Other teams couldnt kill each other because of defence so in end they decided 2 just take us out and basically did that whole macth so points for us 0 and for them like 11+ each because we couldnt kill anything with 6 players of which two are monks, fighting a team with loads of defence an stuff. We even went as far as running away and both teams just ignored each other an followed us trying to kill us even though running along side each other illistrating also the gank fest i was on about.

Next point, HA 3 map types is to much. I say get rid of the relic running because to be honest its unpractical. 3 teams, imagaine how much body blocking your going to have like you have enough hassil with 1. 1 min to run a relic with all this body blocking to lol? Practically put it like this. If you dont have any AOE its gg to you and uv lost already. Only further limits builds even more. Also one thing i wanted to point out is, you have 18 players on the relic run map in HA of which maybe 11 trying to pick up relic. So what happens if your team arnt good at picking a relic up faster than your enermy teams. Is this fair that you should lose because of this?

Next point, mechanics of game have been changed, instead of creating more work for yourself and making it 6v6. If tombs needed a spicing up, with which it really was fine as it was at 8v8. Why not just have changed the mechanics of 8v8 and see how that went.

I think adding buriel mounds was a good idea but the removal of scarred earth was a bad idea. As much as i detested scared earth as well as anybody else i think it was a fundemental part of tombs. It often was challanging and pushed player skill seperating the weat from the chaff and being it was challanging most of the time really should be what tombs is about.

Next comment, gimmick builds like jagged bones and fear me spams and Necro rits ect still work unless you bring counters to them which is hard to do because of the limitations of HA. When you fight teams like these like pargon way with stand your ground ect your still looking at very long macthes on 1v1 macthes. Spiking is difficult to beat now because you cant take many counters to them for the different types, for examples rit spike. say your running a balanced build and its not built on having interupts because you cant fit it on you have to relie on your infuser which means your taking the full force of of each spike really which is sort of gg. Its still to a certain extent buildwars and not skillwars. Skill plays more of a role than before in 6v6 which was absolutly horendous but it dosent play enough.

Conclusion, 6v6 still to limiting no matter what you do. 8v8 would be better, sure you would get gimmicks but you can counter, each macth relies mainly on skill also which guildwars should be about. 6v6 new update is better than before but in no ways will measures to 8v8 in all aspects including fun. One thing gw should bear in mind about the feed back and really should ask players is, do you prefer 8v8 or 6v6 because i believe people are going to say yes the update is good and better than before. But they believe 8v8 is better but as HA was in such a state before having something is better than nothing so they mite stop there. So the real question i say which should constantly be asked and the players should adress is, do you still prefer 8v8 or 6v6.

Pinkley Taurus · Jan 21, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

It seems the changes to Heros Ascent make it more like Alliance Battles and Hero Battles. Kills counts and altar capping are not what make HA fun. Relics runs, altar holding, and straight up fighting are what make it fun and unique. It seems that Guild Wars is merging all the PVP battles into very similar gaming experiences. Altar capping (not related to altar holding and flag capping) is now in AB, HA, and HB. I have even noticed Altar capping creeping into the Nightfall GvG guild halls. If Guild Wars wants to keep its players happy and buying their games, they need to keep these PVP battles unique with newer maps instead of merging them into some cluster of similar games.

Death_From_Above · Jan 21, 2007, 06:23 PM // 18:23

You are so right. People are complaining about things being old ect but what kept people intrested in 8v8 HA was it was unique. As i said in another post, pvpers are not intrested in AB stuff, if we wanted that we would go AB. Were intrested in the macthes being about pure skill and a firm build which halls is not providing at the moment. As you rightly said, they need new inventive ideas and not common ones being used